The logical assumption is that some old-timer was still using the previous 1921-1936 serialization sequence. That would most likely make it a 1942 (i.e H followed E in the previous sequence and E was 1941). However, extant CCM documentation indicates that the Rambler Motorbike was discontinued in the September 1941.
Based on the rim striping, it looks like it may be OEM paint? The 1941 model was only catalogued in blue and maroon.
I see it has a Sturmey-Archer Tri-Coaster. Does the date code provide any further insight?
The rear hub is a 53. Can't go by that. The headbadge is diamond shape Rambler. I would think this headbadge was not used after 41. I will have another look at the serial number. It may be an A but sure looks like H. The paint fooled me. I thought it was OEM by the stripes on wheels and fenders. The spokes are also painted green with over spray. The pinstripes are vinyl stick on type. When I found it, it was in a dark basement and it looked like OEM paint. It was still a good find for fair money.
A diamond badged Rambler Motorbike should have a very narrow production range. Ramblers are not listed in my 1938 catalogue. The first Rambler appearance I've seen is in my 1939 pricelist. Given the September, 1941 discontinuation notice, it should be 1939-1941.
According to discontinuation notice, the CCM Motorbike was discontinued at the same time as the Rambler version, so there shouldn't even be the possibility of a CCM accidentally being badged as a Rambler.
The only other scenario that comes to mind is that it may be an early post war model and CCM were using up some surplus head badges before introducing the perforated, oval badge. Unfortunately, I don't have any 1946-1949 literature to substantiate this possibility.
Submitted by Wayne.Gillies on Tue, 01/27/2015 - 19:54.
The diamond metal head badges were in use up to and including 1942. Beginning in 1943 CCM complied with the Comtroller General Spec Order # 39, which outlined specs for bikes designated for the Military. It was at this point that the War grade bikes became the sole production bikes from CCM (Special orders could still be acquired) See the attached page from a 1945 catalogue which shows the two models, mens & ladies, both of which have the decal head badge. This badge was in use from 1943 to and including 1945.
BTW, my 1942 Rambler has the diamond head badge. The 1945 and 1948, 1950, 51, 53, 54, 56 & 58 catalogues do not list a Rambler. I believe they started to use the name again some time in the 60s..I have a couple of mid 60s Ramblers
The post war cut out badge was in use from 1946 to 48...No diamond badges were affixed to post war bikes because I'm sure they would have been melted down around 1943 in support of the war effort. Any NOS one that would have survived would have gone out of the factory in lunch boxes or pockets, I'm sure.
Mark, thxs for posting. The previous comment about The F-codes makes perfect sense. Given the variability with manual stamping, a partially stamped E-code could end up looking like an F-code, so you would want to avoid using both these codes, unless you had absolute faith in your stamping operation.
The other code that pops up quite a lot is the xVxxxx format. I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the charts. The number of xV-code samples seems all out of proportion to the expected number of survivors, if it wasn't a legitimate code. Also, ,the existance of 1942 Ramblers in conflict with extant CCM discontinuation notice is curious. It certainly makes one cast a cautious eye towards the serial number charts.
Do we know if any of the charrts are based on actual CCM documentation? Or are they all just reverese engineered charts created by CCM enthusiasts? Certainly, reverse engineering has its pitfalls, especially for the pre-1960 period, where there are few survivors and models ran for much longer periods without change.
Submitted by Wayne.Gillies on Wed, 01/28/2015 - 15:30.
T-Mar: To my understanding, the chart had initially been compiled by a fellow from Montreal a number years ago and had been revisedf by others until it has been accepted as a great general guide. The chart was in existance before I got into the hobby a few years ago.
It appears to be relatively accurate in the 1921 to 60s period..As you know, there are anomolies during this period, although the greatest serial # problems appear to have been in the post 60s years, but most of them seem to have been resolved by the newer folks in the hobby.
I'll have to check files to see if I still have the Montreal fellows name
As well, even if some of it were based on CCM records, you must keep in mind that the company was guilty of abysmal record keeping and shoddy management practices. A number of years/bicycle brands had more than one set of serial #s
Thxs Wayne. Currently, the only era in which I have a high degree of confidence for the serial number codes is 1964-1974. Like you, I use the 1921-1960 codes primarily as a guide, but the evidence indicating that these codes are incomplete and possibly skewed, continues to mount. However, knowing how they were derived would go a long ways towards determining their validity.
I just read this post about the CCM serial number chart. I came up with the serial number chart based on information presented in a copy of the CCM trade magazine "VIM" in 1951. The serial numbers for the years going back to 1921 and forward to 1960 were derived from this information. I came up with the serial number list about 15 years ago and gave it to a couple of people in Ontario who, it seems, started to spread it. To the best of my knowledge, it had nothing to do with anyone in Montreal. I was relatively sure of the serial numbers going back to 1921 (prior to this, I think the serial numbers contained only numbers). I was not that confident of the late 1950's serial numbers on the list, but took it to 1960 anyway. I do know that the serial number for a particular year could be found on bicycles made as early as September of the previous year (similar to the way car model years match their production dates).
Here is the exact information that CCM printed in VIM in 1951:
WHY THE CORRECT REGISTRATION OF THE COMPLETE SERIAL NUMBER ON C.C.M. BICYCLES IS MOST IMPORTANT
It has been brought to our attention by Mr. S.A. Richardson, manager of Bicycle Guild Incorporated, operators of "Tyden" seal method of bicycle licensing in over 150 municipalities that quite a number of bicycle owners when registering their bicycle at their Local Municipal Bicycle Licensing Dept. omit the letter shown in Serial No.
For many years C.C.M.has used in serial numbering of bicycles, certain letters of the alphabet denoting year of manufacture and irrespective where letter is located in the serial number should be recorded along with the numerals when registering bicycle.
Beginning Oct. 1 to Dec. 31, 1949, letter "A" was placed at bottom right hand corner immediately below the line of numerals inserial number of all C.C.M. bicycles. Jan. 1 to Dec., 1950, letter "B' was used and located in same position as "A'. This year, 1951, "C" is the key letter. (See Illustration.) Next year, 1952 letter "D" will be used.
Example of current numbering stamped on saddle bracket:
10001
D
Please Note:
1. All C.C.M. bicycle serial numbers contain SIX DIGITS, including letter. (Less than six is not the correct serial).
2. Letter denotes year of manufacture in whichever position it appears in serial no.
3. Letters of alphabet not used in C.C.M. serials numbers: F.G.I.J.M.O.Q.R.U.Y.
4. Serial numbers on C.C.M. bicycles are stamped on SADDLE BRACKET with the exception of period from Aug. 8th, 1949, to Jan.24th, 1950, when serial number was stamped on bottom of crank bracket.
THEREFORE, for better protection of bicycle against theft and more effecient co-operation with Police Depts. in proving ownership when bicycle is recovered, it is of the greatest importance that correct serial including the last digit (letter of the alphabet) be recorded.
Note:we have quite a number of requests from Police Departments for a copy of the above article, which appeared in No. 3 1951 issue of VIM. We have repeated the article in this issue. In the issue of No. 3, 1951 - in second column of article, paragraph 3 - the letter N was shown in error as one of the letters NOT used in C.C.M. Bicycle Serial Numbers. Letter N was used Year 1929 preceding the numerals and again in 1945 following the first numeral.
( END OF ARTICLE)
The article is poorly written, but is reproduced accurately. This is all of the information I used to come up with the CCM serial number list that is now widely used. I think that it is fairly accurate from 1921 to the late 1950's. Perhaps as you read the information in the article, you may find that I have made mistakes. Any corrections would be welcomed. It looks like XXXXXA was only used for 4 months in 1949.
John, thank-you very much for taking the time to type out the complete content of the VIM serialization article. It certainly puts the charts into perspective and answers some questions, though not all .
Most notable is that there is a double code for 1949 which is not taken into consideration on the charts. With A-codes being only October to December inclusive, that would mean that pre-October product should be V-codes. This would explain all the xVxxxx models that have surfaced, even though there is no such code on the charts. Based on the VIM article, the serial number charts should have two entries for 1949, indicating V-codes for January to September and A-codes for October to Decemeber.
Of course, this poses another question. Why would CCM have started the A-codes in October 1949? Was this a singularity or had it been CCM convention up until 1950? I had always wondered if it was possible that at some point CCM had possibly used model years or fiscal years for serial number codes. An October year start would approximate a new model year, though it could vary slightly from year to year. Also, while we know that CCM was formed in August 1899, it is quite possible that some form of legal or financial process caused delays resulting in a fiscal or production year that started in October. The article is unclear and it seems strange that 1949 would have been an anomaly. I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of model, production or fiscal years being the basis for serial number codes prior to 1950.
Thank you very much John for that post. It answers my long standing question about serial numbers - like my 1945 with serial number 53N481 - that have a letter in a position inside of the serial number - it doesn't matter! I had been squinting with my reading glasses to make sure I hadn't been reading the number wrong, mistaking a letter for a number.
It makes total sense that CCM would start manufacturing bicycles in October for the following summer because they also manufactured skates and by October the store shelves would have already been stocked for the winter. One wonders if they alternated their production between summer and winter products like this, or if they had separate areas in the factory for continuous production in parallel, or both with the former in the early years and the latter in later years. I remember reading that CCM began making skates to fill the seasonal gap in their production of bicycles. Is there a CCM retiree from the Weston days active on this site who could enlighten us?
I would like to suggest that John's post about serial numbers be cut and pasted into a new forum under the heading Serial Numbers to make it easier for people to find. -Brian R.
T-mar, you twice mention a mystery around V codes. The attached photo shows an N code that could easily be mistaken for a V code. All signs on that bike point to 1945. Perhaps the N stamp being used made consistently weak left arms on the N for that year.
Submitted by shylow1948 on Fri, 04/02/2021 - 18:20.
Can you help me out? I purchased this CCM bike with out the head badge . The bike is all original as far as i can tell . The serial number is 8v8122 and can not locate it in the CCM serial number web site , any idea as to what make of CCM i have , i have enclosed the photos of the bike and serial number.I am thinking the bike is in the mid 40's Thanks for any help.
The logical assumption is that some old-timer was still using the previous 1921-1936 serialization sequence. That would most likely make it a 1942 (i.e H followed E in the previous sequence and E was 1941). However, extant CCM documentation indicates that the Rambler Motorbike was discontinued in the September 1941.
Based on the rim striping, it looks like it may be OEM paint? The 1941 model was only catalogued in blue and maroon.
I see it has a Sturmey-Archer Tri-Coaster. Does the date code provide any further insight?
Sorry for the misidentification of the hub. Of course, it is the ABC model withe drum brake. When I saw the arm, I erroneously assumed Tri-Coaster.
The rear hub is a 53. Can't go by that. The headbadge is diamond shape Rambler. I would think this headbadge was not used after 41. I will have another look at the serial number. It may be an A but sure looks like H. The paint fooled me. I thought it was OEM by the stripes on wheels and fenders. The spokes are also painted green with over spray. The pinstripes are vinyl stick on type. When I found it, it was in a dark basement and it looked like OEM paint. It was still a good find for fair money.
A diamond badged Rambler Motorbike should have a very narrow production range. Ramblers are not listed in my 1938 catalogue. The first Rambler appearance I've seen is in my 1939 pricelist. Given the September, 1941 discontinuation notice, it should be 1939-1941.
According to discontinuation notice, the CCM Motorbike was discontinued at the same time as the Rambler version, so there shouldn't even be the possibility of a CCM accidentally being badged as a Rambler.
The only other scenario that comes to mind is that it may be an early post war model and CCM were using up some surplus head badges before introducing the perforated, oval badge. Unfortunately, I don't have any 1946-1949 literature to substantiate this possibility.
T-Mar,
I appreciate your vast knowledge of CCM bicycles, thanks. I read your comment above relative to the 1942 Rambler.
I had picked one up about a year ago. It too had a serial number with 'H' , as well as an earlier post by Wayne.
Seems like these Ramblers with 'H' in the serial number keep popping up.
Per my previous post with pics: http://www.vintageccm.com/content/1942-ccm-rambler-motorbike
And previous post from Wayne: http://www.vintageccm.com/content/1942-ccm-rambler
Mark M
The diamond metal head badges were in use up to and including 1942. Beginning in 1943 CCM complied with the Comtroller General Spec Order # 39, which outlined specs for bikes designated for the Military. It was at this point that the War grade bikes became the sole production bikes from CCM (Special orders could still be acquired) See the attached page from a 1945 catalogue which shows the two models, mens & ladies, both of which have the decal head badge. This badge was in use from 1943 to and including 1945.
BTW, my 1942 Rambler has the diamond head badge. The 1945 and 1948, 1950, 51, 53, 54, 56 & 58 catalogues do not list a Rambler. I believe they started to use the name again some time in the 60s..I have a couple of mid 60s Ramblers
The post war cut out badge was in use from 1946 to 48...No diamond badges were affixed to post war bikes because I'm sure they would have been melted down around 1943 in support of the war effort. Any NOS one that would have survived would have gone out of the factory in lunch boxes or pockets, I'm sure.
Mark, thxs for posting. The previous comment about The F-codes makes perfect sense. Given the variability with manual stamping, a partially stamped E-code could end up looking like an F-code, so you would want to avoid using both these codes, unless you had absolute faith in your stamping operation.
The other code that pops up quite a lot is the xVxxxx format. I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the charts. The number of xV-code samples seems all out of proportion to the expected number of survivors, if it wasn't a legitimate code. Also, ,the existance of 1942 Ramblers in conflict with extant CCM discontinuation notice is curious. It certainly makes one cast a cautious eye towards the serial number charts.
Do we know if any of the charrts are based on actual CCM documentation? Or are they all just reverese engineered charts created by CCM enthusiasts? Certainly, reverse engineering has its pitfalls, especially for the pre-1960 period, where there are few survivors and models ran for much longer periods without change.
T-Mar: To my understanding, the chart had initially been compiled by a fellow from Montreal a number years ago and had been revisedf by others until it has been accepted as a great general guide. The chart was in existance before I got into the hobby a few years ago.
It appears to be relatively accurate in the 1921 to 60s period..As you know, there are anomolies during this period, although the greatest serial # problems appear to have been in the post 60s years, but most of them seem to have been resolved by the newer folks in the hobby.
I'll have to check files to see if I still have the Montreal fellows name
As well, even if some of it were based on CCM records, you must keep in mind that the company was guilty of abysmal record keeping and shoddy management practices. A number of years/bicycle brands had more than one set of serial #s
Thxs Wayne. Currently, the only era in which I have a high degree of confidence for the serial number codes is 1964-1974. Like you, I use the 1921-1960 codes primarily as a guide, but the evidence indicating that these codes are incomplete and possibly skewed, continues to mount. However, knowing how they were derived would go a long ways towards determining their validity.
I just read this post about the CCM serial number chart. I came up with the serial number chart based on information presented in a copy of the CCM trade magazine "VIM" in 1951. The serial numbers for the years going back to 1921 and forward to 1960 were derived from this information. I came up with the serial number list about 15 years ago and gave it to a couple of people in Ontario who, it seems, started to spread it. To the best of my knowledge, it had nothing to do with anyone in Montreal. I was relatively sure of the serial numbers going back to 1921 (prior to this, I think the serial numbers contained only numbers). I was not that confident of the late 1950's serial numbers on the list, but took it to 1960 anyway. I do know that the serial number for a particular year could be found on bicycles made as early as September of the previous year (similar to the way car model years match their production dates).
Here is the exact information that CCM printed in VIM in 1951:
WHY THE CORRECT REGISTRATION OF THE COMPLETE SERIAL NUMBER ON C.C.M. BICYCLES IS MOST IMPORTANT
It has been brought to our attention by Mr. S.A. Richardson, manager of Bicycle Guild Incorporated, operators of "Tyden" seal method of bicycle licensing in over 150 municipalities that quite a number of bicycle owners when registering their bicycle at their Local Municipal Bicycle Licensing Dept. omit the letter shown in Serial No.
For many years C.C.M.has used in serial numbering of bicycles, certain letters of the alphabet denoting year of manufacture and irrespective where letter is located in the serial number should be recorded along with the numerals when registering bicycle.
Beginning Oct. 1 to Dec. 31, 1949, letter "A" was placed at bottom right hand corner immediately below the line of numerals inserial number of all C.C.M. bicycles. Jan. 1 to Dec., 1950, letter "B' was used and located in same position as "A'. This year, 1951, "C" is the key letter. (See Illustration.) Next year, 1952 letter "D" will be used.
Example of current numbering stamped on saddle bracket:
10001
D
Please Note:
1. All C.C.M. bicycle serial numbers contain SIX DIGITS, including letter. (Less than six is not the correct serial).
2. Letter denotes year of manufacture in whichever position it appears in serial no.
3. Letters of alphabet not used in C.C.M. serials numbers: F.G.I.J.M.O.Q.R.U.Y.
4. Serial numbers on C.C.M. bicycles are stamped on SADDLE BRACKET with the exception of period from Aug. 8th, 1949, to Jan.24th, 1950, when serial number was stamped on bottom of crank bracket.
THEREFORE, for better protection of bicycle against theft and more effecient co-operation with Police Depts. in proving ownership when bicycle is recovered, it is of the greatest importance that correct serial including the last digit (letter of the alphabet) be recorded.
Note:we have quite a number of requests from Police Departments for a copy of the above article, which appeared in No. 3 1951 issue of VIM. We have repeated the article in this issue. In the issue of No. 3, 1951 - in second column of article, paragraph 3 - the letter N was shown in error as one of the letters NOT used in C.C.M. Bicycle Serial Numbers. Letter N was used Year 1929 preceding the numerals and again in 1945 following the first numeral.
( END OF ARTICLE)
The article is poorly written, but is reproduced accurately. This is all of the information I used to come up with the CCM serial number list that is now widely used. I think that it is fairly accurate from 1921 to the late 1950's. Perhaps as you read the information in the article, you may find that I have made mistakes. Any corrections would be welcomed. It looks like XXXXXA was only used for 4 months in 1949.
Regards,
John Williamson
Edmonton
John, thank-you very much for taking the time to type out the complete content of the VIM serialization article. It certainly puts the charts into perspective and answers some questions, though not all .
Most notable is that there is a double code for 1949 which is not taken into consideration on the charts. With A-codes being only October to December inclusive, that would mean that pre-October product should be V-codes. This would explain all the xVxxxx models that have surfaced, even though there is no such code on the charts. Based on the VIM article, the serial number charts should have two entries for 1949, indicating V-codes for January to September and A-codes for October to Decemeber.
Of course, this poses another question. Why would CCM have started the A-codes in October 1949? Was this a singularity or had it been CCM convention up until 1950? I had always wondered if it was possible that at some point CCM had possibly used model years or fiscal years for serial number codes. An October year start would approximate a new model year, though it could vary slightly from year to year. Also, while we know that CCM was formed in August 1899, it is quite possible that some form of legal or financial process caused delays resulting in a fiscal or production year that started in October. The article is unclear and it seems strange that 1949 would have been an anomaly. I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of model, production or fiscal years being the basis for serial number codes prior to 1950.
Thank you very much John for that post. It answers my long standing question about serial numbers - like my 1945 with serial number 53N481 - that have a letter in a position inside of the serial number - it doesn't matter! I had been squinting with my reading glasses to make sure I hadn't been reading the number wrong, mistaking a letter for a number.
It makes total sense that CCM would start manufacturing bicycles in October for the following summer because they also manufactured skates and by October the store shelves would have already been stocked for the winter. One wonders if they alternated their production between summer and winter products like this, or if they had separate areas in the factory for continuous production in parallel, or both with the former in the early years and the latter in later years. I remember reading that CCM began making skates to fill the seasonal gap in their production of bicycles. Is there a CCM retiree from the Weston days active on this site who could enlighten us?
I would like to suggest that John's post about serial numbers be cut and pasted into a new forum under the heading Serial Numbers to make it easier for people to find. -Brian R.
T-mar, you twice mention a mystery around V codes. The attached photo shows an N code that could easily be mistaken for a V code. All signs on that bike point to 1945. Perhaps the N stamp being used made consistently weak left arms on the N for that year.
Can you help me out? I purchased this CCM bike with out the head badge . The bike is all original as far as i can tell . The serial number is 8v8122 and can not locate it in the CCM serial number web site , any idea as to what make of CCM i have , i have enclosed the photos of the bike and serial number.I am thinking the bike is in the mid 40's Thanks for any help.