Submitted by Ron Miller on Tue, 08/20/2013 - 19:05.
John Could you or the owner measure the diameter of the seat stays. My flyer has 3/8" seat stays my Road racer which looks quite similar to a Flyer, has 1/2" seat stays. I think that is a Road Racer as the seat stays look like 1/2" to me. Ron
thanks for your comments /questions. I am going to confirm measurements and look for a serial number later today. And confirm fender mount or no mount. I have always been curious about this classic, now I am investigating.
With all due respect to Ron, I'm not sure that I would use the seat stay outer diameter as the criteria to identify a Road Racer versus Flyer. While I don't have any Accles and Pollack catalogs, their major competitor, Reynolds, was known to offer multiple diameters, so Accles and Pollack proably did likewise. Consequently, the diameter of the stays could vary depending on the application or year.
To me, the better critera would be to use the seat post diameter, as the the outer diameter of the seat tube is standard and diameter of the seat post therefore reflects the thickness of the seat tube wall. It's always been my understanding that the Road Racer uses CCM's standard 7/8" post while the Flyer uses the larger, 1-1/16" diameter post, due to the thinner walled, CrMo seat tube.
In the picture, it looks like the seat post necks down to accommodate the saddle clamp. If so, it should be a Flyer, as the 1-1/16" post necks down to 7/8" to accept the saddle clamp. On a Road Racer, the post would not have a neck.
Seat stays are 1/2" at the top near the seat, and appear to narrow toward the rear hub to 3/8"
There are wood caps at the top of the seat and I think the white is not factory? Today I was admiring the craftsmanship in the wooden rims and the original Brooks saddle appeared to log many miles.
Seat stay brace has NO fender mount hole Lawrence
I can't see the serial number and if anybody has any questions or thoughts please let me know
Submitted by Ron Miller on Thu, 08/22/2013 - 18:41.
T-Mar You are right again. And I checked my Flyer and 2 Road racer frames. Road racers are 7/8" saddle pins Flyer is 11/16" saddle pin. And of course the seat stays could vary in diameter. I suspect the flyers were almost custom made. So a heavier rider would go for the larger tubing. 3/8 is just slightly thicker than a pencil it looks very delicate. The fellow who owned my Flyer was 6 foot and not a light weight but he did not buy it new.
Andy I had to remove paint to read the serial no on my Flyer.
Submitted by Wayne.Gillies on Thu, 08/22/2013 - 19:02.
Ron: What year does your serial # indicate?
My Flyer is a mid 20s and it has no serial number. A couple of other mid 20s Flyers I know of also do not have serial #s. I have been told that serial #s did not appear on the Flyers until the 30s.
Seat stay braces on Flyers have no factory fender mount holes whereas Road Racers do.
I wouldn't use the presence of a hole in the seat stay bridge to signify that the frame is not Flyer. In addition to mounting fenders, these holes were used for mounting caliper brakes. Once the use of caliper brakes started gaining in popularity they were incorporated on the Flyer and were definitely present on the road versions of the 1950s. Undoubtedly, earlier versions could have sported them based on customer request and many pre-war Flyers probably had them drilled by owners in later years in order to retrofit caliper brakes.
In addition to tailoring the bicycle to rider weight, the stay diameter may also have been selected based on race type. Flyers intended primarily for road use probably used the smaller diameter stays as they would have been more flexible and provided better shock absorption. Prior to World War II the majority of roads were still unpaved and races were often held on them to avoid the more congested paved roads. Flyers intended primarily for track use could have been fitted with stiffer, larger diameter stays for better power transfer, as the smooth riding surfaces imparted neglible shock.
Submitted by Wayne.Gillies on Fri, 08/23/2013 - 10:23.
On the earlier Flyers and road racers it was not necessary to drill holes for the brakes as they could be fitted with the Phillips centre pull caliper brakes (Philco 115 and 116, front & rear). There was no need to drill holes to fit these as they are bracket mounted between the seat stays. A rear brake was standard for Road Racers after 1933 and were an option for the Flyers; a front brake was an option for both.
The hole I refer to is a vertically drilled one for mounting fenders not a horizontally drilled one for mounting other types of caliper brakes.
I bring up the matter of the hole in the bridge WRT the earlier Flyers which were not fitted with fenders unless a special order or some sort of retrofit.
It is often difficult to differentiate between many bikes after mods are made. I suppose the only infallible way to determine if it is a Flyer is to do the Geometry. I know the geometry on my Flyer and on my Road Racer is quite apparent. I do not have the angles, etc at hand but perhaps Ron Miller may
Submitted by BtfdRedbird on Sat, 09/14/2013 - 23:49.
If you would like to look at an original, no fooled with, Flyer, you are welcome to come and take picures to you hearts content. Absoutely nothing has been changed from this bike, ie original decals, paint, hubs, wheels, etc. It is what it is. I've ridden this bike and its pretty cool although there are no brakes and I'm always nervous about what will happen. In any event, these are great bikes and almost inpossible to find in original condition. I'd post pictures but I just cannot figure it out.
Submitted by BtfdRedbird on Sat, 09/14/2013 - 23:49.
If you would like to look at an original, no fooled with, Flyer, you are welcome to come and take picures to you hearts content. Absoutely nothing has been changed from this bike, ie original decals, paint, hubs, wheels, etc. It is what it is. I've ridden this bike and its pretty cool although there are no brakes and I'm always nervous about what will happen. In any event, these are great bikes and almost inpossible to find in original condition. I'd post pictures but I just cannot figure it out.
John Could you or the owner measure the diameter of the seat stays. My flyer has 3/8" seat stays my Road racer which looks quite similar to a Flyer, has 1/2" seat stays. I think that is a Road Racer as the seat stays look like 1/2" to me. Ron
Is there a fender mount hole in the cross brace between the seat stays? Cheers
Ron and Wayne
thanks for your comments /questions. I am going to confirm measurements and look for a serial number later today. And confirm fender mount or no mount. I have always been curious about this classic, now I am investigating.
Cheers
Andy
What kind of head badge is that?
Looks like decals.
Lawrence,
I questioned the CCM because the badge appeared amatuer with stickers. But the stamp on the cranks confirmed ccm
With all due respect to Ron, I'm not sure that I would use the seat stay outer diameter as the criteria to identify a Road Racer versus Flyer. While I don't have any Accles and Pollack catalogs, their major competitor, Reynolds, was known to offer multiple diameters, so Accles and Pollack proably did likewise. Consequently, the diameter of the stays could vary depending on the application or year.
To me, the better critera would be to use the seat post diameter, as the the outer diameter of the seat tube is standard and diameter of the seat post therefore reflects the thickness of the seat tube wall. It's always been my understanding that the Road Racer uses CCM's standard 7/8" post while the Flyer uses the larger, 1-1/16" diameter post, due to the thinner walled, CrMo seat tube.
In the picture, it looks like the seat post necks down to accommodate the saddle clamp. If so, it should be a Flyer, as the 1-1/16" post necks down to 7/8" to accept the saddle clamp. On a Road Racer, the post would not have a neck.
Seat stays are 1/2" at the top near the seat, and appear to narrow toward the rear hub to 3/8"
There are wood caps at the top of the seat and I think the white is not factory? Today I was admiring the craftsmanship in the wooden rims and the original Brooks saddle appeared to log many miles.
Seat stay brace has NO fender mount hole Lawrence
I can't see the serial number and if anybody has any questions or thoughts please let me know
Andy
T-Mar You are right again. And I checked my Flyer and 2 Road racer frames. Road racers are 7/8" saddle pins Flyer is 11/16" saddle pin. And of course the seat stays could vary in diameter. I suspect the flyers were almost custom made. So a heavier rider would go for the larger tubing. 3/8 is just slightly thicker than a pencil it looks very delicate. The fellow who owned my Flyer was 6 foot and not a light weight but he did not buy it new.
Andy I had to remove paint to read the serial no on my Flyer.
Ron
Ron: What year does your serial # indicate?
My Flyer is a mid 20s and it has no serial number. A couple of other mid 20s Flyers I know of also do not have serial #s. I have been told that serial #s did not appear on the Flyers until the 30s.
Seat stay braces on Flyers have no factory fender mount holes whereas Road Racers do.
Cheers, Wayne
I wouldn't use the presence of a hole in the seat stay bridge to signify that the frame is not Flyer. In addition to mounting fenders, these holes were used for mounting caliper brakes. Once the use of caliper brakes started gaining in popularity they were incorporated on the Flyer and were definitely present on the road versions of the 1950s. Undoubtedly, earlier versions could have sported them based on customer request and many pre-war Flyers probably had them drilled by owners in later years in order to retrofit caliper brakes.
In addition to tailoring the bicycle to rider weight, the stay diameter may also have been selected based on race type. Flyers intended primarily for road use probably used the smaller diameter stays as they would have been more flexible and provided better shock absorption. Prior to World War II the majority of roads were still unpaved and races were often held on them to avoid the more congested paved roads. Flyers intended primarily for track use could have been fitted with stiffer, larger diameter stays for better power transfer, as the smooth riding surfaces imparted neglible shock.
On the earlier Flyers and road racers it was not necessary to drill holes for the brakes as they could be fitted with the Phillips centre pull caliper brakes (Philco 115 and 116, front & rear). There was no need to drill holes to fit these as they are bracket mounted between the seat stays. A rear brake was standard for Road Racers after 1933 and were an option for the Flyers; a front brake was an option for both.
The hole I refer to is a vertically drilled one for mounting fenders not a horizontally drilled one for mounting other types of caliper brakes.
I bring up the matter of the hole in the bridge WRT the earlier Flyers which were not fitted with fenders unless a special order or some sort of retrofit.
It is often difficult to differentiate between many bikes after mods are made. I suppose the only infallible way to determine if it is a Flyer is to do the Geometry. I know the geometry on my Flyer and on my Road Racer is quite apparent. I do not have the angles, etc at hand but perhaps Ron Miller may
My Flyer is No. Z13530 1936 Angles 70º
Road racer No. X21985 1935 Angles 67º
No. 61C943 !939 (I think the guy put the C one digit to far right that day) Angles 67º
I had to remove the original paint to find the No. on the Flyer the numbers were very shallow and did not show through the paint.
The bridges on the Flyer are !/4" upper, !/2" lower, no bolt holes. Road racers both have !/2" bridges and mud guard bolt holes
Ron
Hello,
Interesting comments.
My frame has a letter S stamped on the left rear dropout. plus a raised star on the BB shell.
See pics at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/sets/72157631500235756/
Also please see my posting in the CCM wanted to buy forum.
Regards
Tony
If you would like to look at an original, no fooled with, Flyer, you are welcome to come and take picures to you hearts content. Absoutely nothing has been changed from this bike, ie original decals, paint, hubs, wheels, etc. It is what it is. I've ridden this bike and its pretty cool although there are no brakes and I'm always nervous about what will happen. In any event, these are great bikes and almost inpossible to find in original condition. I'd post pictures but I just cannot figure it out.
If you would like to look at an original, no fooled with, Flyer, you are welcome to come and take picures to you hearts content. Absoutely nothing has been changed from this bike, ie original decals, paint, hubs, wheels, etc. It is what it is. I've ridden this bike and its pretty cool although there are no brakes and I'm always nervous about what will happen. In any event, these are great bikes and almost inpossible to find in original condition. I'd post pictures but I just cannot figure it out.
Hello BtfdRedbird,
I would like to see some pictures of your bike, can you please send me some pics via e-mail.
My e-mail address is:
moonm.music@frontier.com
I would appreciate if you can oblige.
Regards
Tony