Was cruising on Kijiji and came across a Cleveland 458 bicycle posted 1 Dec 22 for sale in Edmonton by an Antique Store. I don't know any more than what was listed, thought I should inform the forum if anyone is interested.
Yes, this bike is at the Rocky Mountain Antique Mall. The asking price last time I checked was $1450. It is not original but looks like something someone put together. The wheels seem to have newer wooden rims and the back wheel has a newer CCM nub with a brake arm on it. Thev bike appears to be from around 1924. The Triplex crank arms have been brazed to the bottom bracket axle. The bike appears to have been given a coat of black enamel. The bracket for a light is relatively useless in its present position for most lights.
Bicyclecollector; I think that you are wrong about what this bike is. At present, the fork is just painted silver. The cranks are the newer style, not the 1918 style. The bike has definitely been repainted. The wheels are not original. I have been able to look at this bicycle very closely. I also have an early Cleveland. This bike has obviously been messed with. The headset has some 1950's or 1960's parts on it. If you like the bike Max, you could buy it.
There are parts of this bike that are desirable. The person selling the bike told me that it had been "worked on".. If it was $500 less it might be worth it.
When Don Farmer was auctioning some of his bikes you decided that they were just made up from a bunch of parts. This bike has some things that are obviously not original and yet you think that it is.
No Max, it is not my bike. I saw it for sale in the Antique Mall more than 2 months ago. My statement that it is from 1924 is probably wrong. The Model T crank was only used up until 1923. I will take a closer look at this bike. I do have a 1924 catalogue - I will dig it out. The type of frame construction between the Toronto years and the early to mid '20s changed on CCM bicycles. I will see if I can come up with abetter answer as to what this bike actually is. I can check the serial number (the bike is only 15 minutes from where I live). I do think that it is overpriced. It would take a bit of work to remove the crank arms that someone brazed onto the Model T axle. To restore this part of the bike would require replacing the crank and both arms. The pedals are from the 1960's.
Submitted by Ron Miller on Sun, 12/04/2022 - 15:07.
John, Model No. 458 is in the 1917 catalogue. The 1916 catalogue gives no Model numbers for Cleveland. Other brand names show model numbers. 1916 is the first year Bicycles are mentioned in the "Bicycle Accessories and Parts" catalogues. Before 1916 I think they all had separate catalogues. Ron
I just looked at this bicycle again. He is asking $1499 and not $1450. The serial number starts with a "B" indicating it is a 1922 model. The one that I own is a 1923 model. Both bikes have the Cleveland headbadge with the inserts (Model 458) the lower inserts say Weston on them. The fork on the bike for sale is actually nickel plated. When I looked at it earlier it was dull and I thought it was paint. The front and back fenders do not match. The front looks like a fairly narrow Gothic style fender that has been flattened out. The back fender is rounded with crimped edges. The curve of the front fender seems wrong for the 28 X 1 1/2 wheel and tire. The back hub is a "New Hercules" that has had a brake arm added at a later date. The LHS crank arm has had a hole drilled into it from the side where it meets the crank axle. This was probably done to facilitate removal at some time in the past. The sprocket on the RHS of the crank is quite worn, with the usual "shark tooth" appearance. The handlebar and seat stems appear to be original. The mismatched fenders have been painted in the same gloss black paint that someone used on the rest of the bike. The spokes in both wheels are extremely loose and the bike could not be ridden like this. Despite this,the wooden rims appear to be fairly true.
The Cleveland model 458 was available until at least 1923, and possibly 1924. It does not seem to be offered in the 1925 catalogue.
looks like a lot of work to bring it back like you said
like you said, 1449 is too high and he is probably charging taxes on top of that since he runs a business
pretty cool that you and Ron seem to have all those early CCM catalogues to use as reference, IMO, catalogues are the most useful reference even if not always perfect
i can only go off the 1918 catalogue and the limited bikes in my small collection
i had just happened to have a model 458 on hand, but that's the only early Cleveland I have, so it's not much of a reference for earlier or later years
I had "estimated" mine as 1916, but I could also be dead wrong ...... but my lower insert says Toronto, Ont. so it narrows my guesses
If you look at the early frames (up to around 1917) they have internal "lug" comstruction. When you look at these frames, there is no obvious external lug that the tubes fit into. This gives the frame a very smooth look at the joints, but also makes frame repairs very difficult. As you mentioned, the early frames had a bottom bracket that accepted two bolts but this was gone by at least the mid teens. Differences in the frames of the various CCM brands (Cleveland, Columbia, Massey, Red Bird, and Perfect), with the exception of the different forks, were phased out when CCM opened the Weston factory. By 1918, CCM stated that every CCM frame was the same (i.e. all Roadster frames were the same, all ladies frames were the same, all curved top tube frames were the same, etc.).
The big change in CCM frames over the years was lugged construction. By at least the early '20's, the bottom bracket and seat tube featured lugs that the various tubes were inserted into at the factory and brazed. By the mid 1920's, CCM was also using a head tube/head lug assembly that the top and down tubes slid into and were subsequently brazed. CCM did not go to a fully lugged frame until around 1948 when they purchased large quantities of Haden lugs from England. Other frame changes over the years involved the shape of the seat tubes, rear drop outs, and the assembly of the rear drop outs, seat stays, and chain stays.
Submitted by Ron Miller on Wed, 12/07/2022 - 09:58.
In a previous post above I said the 1916 Catalogue did not show Cleveland Bicycles. On looking a bit closer I realized page 7 and 8 are missing. Oh the problems of old age !! Page 7 would be the one showing Cleveland bicycles and listing the model numbers. If any one has a 1916 CCM Bicycle Accessiries catalogue could you check to see if Model 458 appears in that year, Thank you Ron
Yes, this bike is at the Rocky Mountain Antique Mall. The asking price last time I checked was $1450. It is not original but looks like something someone put together. The wheels seem to have newer wooden rims and the back wheel has a newer CCM nub with a brake arm on it. Thev bike appears to be from around 1924. The Triplex crank arms have been brazed to the bottom bracket axle. The bike appears to have been given a coat of black enamel. The bracket for a light is relatively useless in its present position for most lights.
John Williamson
bike is closer to 1916-1918, pretty sure the lower insert on the badge says Toronto, Ont ..... not 1924
I own a compete original Cleveland 458 and my wood rims are stamped 1916!
the model 458 is in the 1918 CCM catalogue
I don't think the bike is too bad
(other than a few bolts, grips, pedals, seat, and the wax like material holding the cranks)
looks like front fender is original, but looks like the rear fender and all braces are replaced.
rims look period to me, hubs might be replaced, my bike had a brake arm on the rear hub (ND Model A, it's in the 1918 catalogue)
paint look original, looks like the badge rivets on the left side were never messed with
suprising that the fork is nickeled! pretty cool, mine is all black!
looks like the rare Russell high bars and stem
https://archive.org/details/bicycleaccrepair00canauoft/page/8/mode/2up
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-art-collectibles/edmonton/super-cool-early-wood-...
Bicyclecollector; I think that you are wrong about what this bike is. At present, the fork is just painted silver. The cranks are the newer style, not the 1918 style. The bike has definitely been repainted. The wheels are not original. I have been able to look at this bicycle very closely. I also have an early Cleveland. This bike has obviously been messed with. The headset has some 1950's or 1960's parts on it. If you like the bike Max, you could buy it.
might be wrong on some things, going off what I see in the pictures
but did you even look at the 1918 catalogue before commenting?
cranks are 100% correct, bottom cup is 100% correct, top cup looks replaced
if I was interested in the bike, the ad would not still be there!
i already have a 458, so at least I can compare to something
what model is your "early Cleveland"?
from the picture, the fork looks nickel, or that is a darn good silver paint job
but if you think paint than it must be paint John .....
bike could be a repaint, but again, going off pictures!
since you saw the bike in person, you probably noticed that the bottom insert of the badge says Toronto, Ont
was CCM in Toronto in 1924?
or maybe your guess is that the bottom insert of the badge was replaced as well ...... kind of a hard to find insert
There are parts of this bike that are desirable. The person selling the bike told me that it had been "worked on".. If it was $500 less it might be worth it.
When Don Farmer was auctioning some of his bikes you decided that they were just made up from a bunch of parts. This bike has some things that are obviously not original and yet you think that it is.
yes,you are right, there are some things that are definitely not original like I mentioned
and if you have seen the bike in person than you are probably right on everything you are saying, you have years of experience
i am going off the sale post pictures, my own 458 and the 1918 catalogue ...... I can only comment on that
you are taking this way too personal, it is your bike?
do you have a 1924 catalogue? I don't
does the 1924 catalogue have a model 458 Cleveland in it?
What model is your "early Cleveland" John?
No Max, it is not my bike. I saw it for sale in the Antique Mall more than 2 months ago. My statement that it is from 1924 is probably wrong. The Model T crank was only used up until 1923. I will take a closer look at this bike. I do have a 1924 catalogue - I will dig it out. The type of frame construction between the Toronto years and the early to mid '20s changed on CCM bicycles. I will see if I can come up with abetter answer as to what this bike actually is. I can check the serial number (the bike is only 15 minutes from where I live). I do think that it is overpriced. It would take a bit of work to remove the crank arms that someone brazed onto the Model T axle. To restore this part of the bike would require replacing the crank and both arms. The pedals are from the 1960's.
John, Model No. 458 is in the 1917 catalogue. The 1916 catalogue gives no Model numbers for Cleveland. Other brand names show model numbers. 1916 is the first year Bicycles are mentioned in the "Bicycle Accessories and Parts" catalogues. Before 1916 I think they all had separate catalogues. Ron
cool
I just looked at this bicycle again. He is asking $1499 and not $1450. The serial number starts with a "B" indicating it is a 1922 model. The one that I own is a 1923 model. Both bikes have the Cleveland headbadge with the inserts (Model 458) the lower inserts say Weston on them. The fork on the bike for sale is actually nickel plated. When I looked at it earlier it was dull and I thought it was paint. The front and back fenders do not match. The front looks like a fairly narrow Gothic style fender that has been flattened out. The back fender is rounded with crimped edges. The curve of the front fender seems wrong for the 28 X 1 1/2 wheel and tire. The back hub is a "New Hercules" that has had a brake arm added at a later date. The LHS crank arm has had a hole drilled into it from the side where it meets the crank axle. This was probably done to facilitate removal at some time in the past. The sprocket on the RHS of the crank is quite worn, with the usual "shark tooth" appearance. The handlebar and seat stems appear to be original. The mismatched fenders have been painted in the same gloss black paint that someone used on the rest of the bike. The spokes in both wheels are extremely loose and the bike could not be ridden like this. Despite this,the wooden rims appear to be fairly true.
The Cleveland model 458 was available until at least 1923, and possibly 1924. It does not seem to be offered in the 1925 catalogue.
thanks John for the new assessment
looks like a lot of work to bring it back like you said
like you said, 1449 is too high and he is probably charging taxes on top of that since he runs a business
pretty cool that you and Ron seem to have all those early CCM catalogues to use as reference, IMO, catalogues are the most useful reference even if not always perfect
i can only go off the 1918 catalogue and the limited bikes in my small collection
i had just happened to have a model 458 on hand, but that's the only early Cleveland I have, so it's not much of a reference for earlier or later years
I had "estimated" mine as 1916, but I could also be dead wrong ...... but my lower insert says Toronto, Ont. so it narrows my guesses
John, you had mentioned frame difference in an earlier post
what are the main frame mods from the Toronto years to Weston years?
i would sincerely like to learn more
one thing that my bike has is those two screws under the BB
from the pictures of the bike for sale, it is hard to see if the BB had those two crews
If there will be a discussion about CCM's BB changes, could we have that on the thread I started in 2018?
I couldn't post a link, so here is the title: CCM Crank Hanger and Bottom Bracket Page 1900-1920
If you look at the early frames (up to around 1917) they have internal "lug" comstruction. When you look at these frames, there is no obvious external lug that the tubes fit into. This gives the frame a very smooth look at the joints, but also makes frame repairs very difficult. As you mentioned, the early frames had a bottom bracket that accepted two bolts but this was gone by at least the mid teens. Differences in the frames of the various CCM brands (Cleveland, Columbia, Massey, Red Bird, and Perfect), with the exception of the different forks, were phased out when CCM opened the Weston factory. By 1918, CCM stated that every CCM frame was the same (i.e. all Roadster frames were the same, all ladies frames were the same, all curved top tube frames were the same, etc.).
The big change in CCM frames over the years was lugged construction. By at least the early '20's, the bottom bracket and seat tube featured lugs that the various tubes were inserted into at the factory and brazed. By the mid 1920's, CCM was also using a head tube/head lug assembly that the top and down tubes slid into and were subsequently brazed. CCM did not go to a fully lugged frame until around 1948 when they purchased large quantities of Haden lugs from England. Other frame changes over the years involved the shape of the seat tubes, rear drop outs, and the assembly of the rear drop outs, seat stays, and chain stays.
great information John
not something I had paid attention to before
I just took a look at my bike, and the only lugs are at the BB
and my BB does have the two screws at the bottom
In a previous post above I said the 1916 Catalogue did not show Cleveland Bicycles. On looking a bit closer I realized page 7 and 8 are missing. Oh the problems of old age !! Page 7 would be the one showing Cleveland bicycles and listing the model numbers. If any one has a 1916 CCM Bicycle Accessiries catalogue could you check to see if Model 458 appears in that year, Thank you Ron
thank you for checking Ron
pretty amazing that you have all those old catalogues.
didn't know anyone had any of those early ones