New Member in Vancouver

Jamie, welcome to the forums. It sounds like we have very similar interests, though my collection pales in comparison to yours. Did you race while you were living in Belgium?

T-Mar

I didn't really race, just group rides, plus my own training/workouts. I'm retired now but I used to have a hard time keeping up with those Belgian 70 year olds in their matching jerseys on carbon frames with electronic shifting! And I'm younger! The benefit for me was that I was able to acquire their old machines for next to nothing...they always want the latest. Eddie M. Lived just down the road and I've ridden with him a few times-talk about fantasy rides!  Thanks for your reply,

Jamie

Welcome to the Forum Jamie.

John

Hi folks!

I'm still hoping to make contact with any Vancouver area collectors or enthusiats who would like to get together and talk vintage bikes, ride, pour through treasures, etc. Besides CCM, key words would be early Campagnolo, Italian vintage, Gnutti, Magistroni, etc. Fingers crossed!

Jamie

Maybe Lawrence Ruskin? He is a CCM guy and I believe he is in Vancouver. I may be in Victoria for a couple of regattas but won't get the opportunity to go over to the mainland. The rental car agencies don't let you take the cars off the island. . 

I'll check out Lawrence...too bad you can't get over to the Mainland after your regatta, but keep in touch. I was really expecting a few hits from West Coast guys but I'll keep plugging away. Thanks!

Jamie in New Westminster

Hi Jamie 

Next time I am in North Van will look you up. Just came back from there as my Daughter lives there.  My interest is early wood rim bikes and Canadian made , Did have lots of American stuff but that is all gone.   Just parted with my last chainless bike 1900  CCM Cleveland. Also do a lot of cycle touring and off to New Zealnd in Feb. Still lookimg for early 1896 97 Goold Brantford mens bike. Is your Perfect  a wood wheel bike?

Dave   In Ontario

Dave

Thanks for the reply and looking forward to your next trip to North Van, visitors here are always welcome! I've been meaning to properly date the Perfect so I need to pose the question to the Forum once I get some pictures in order. It's a 24" frame Black Men's Roadster with Nickled rims, not wood, and 'A' grade components, no fender holes for lacing, serial number 274869 which predates the organized CCM numbering system which began with a letter in 1921. Also the head badge says Toronto, not the earlier Weston. It's in great shape with the Nickled trim having a nice, slightly dull patina which I don't want to polish. Probably late teens?

Jamie

 Hi Again Jamie

Fenders would not have lacing holes in them as it a mens bike. Is there a number on the head badge? Also it might be earlier if it says Toronto as in Toronto  Junction. Where they were first before Weston. Does it have the hercules hub without the brake arm?

Dave

Dave

No number on the head badge, just Toronto, Canada. Hercules hub, no brake arm, any distinguishing marks to look fo? Ie, as in dated Sturmey Archer AW hubs? Strangely I have Belgian men's bikes from the 20's with laced rear fenders although they do have brazed-on rear carriers which is a very Continental feature. 

Jamie

A picture might help. I can see the Belgian bikes  and other European bikes having lacing holes in rear fender ,but I can 't say as I have seen them on North American early bikes. But that is just my take on it. Does the rear hub say just Hercules or New Hercules?  The big thing is a lot of parts can be changed in a hundred years.

Dave

Dave

Yes, a picture will help once I figure out how to do it from my IPad, nothing loaded yet....the hub is just Hercules and I believe original to the bike since it hasn't been ridden very much. I certainly have seen some real clangers regarding replaced components and for me this is part of the fun locating age specific and correct parts. Friends tell me I may even take this too far by making sure Campagnolo axle cone lock washers have the correct year stamp! I will post some pics soon so Forum readers can help me zero in on an age for the Perfect.

Jamie, riding in the rain today on a straight bar Fixie!

Jamie

  The Hercules only hub makes it pretty early. My self I usually change the rear hub to a New hercules as it is  a little better brake and a little thicker bearing suface and look the same . As I like to ride them and stop when I want to. Riding in the rain is  just another part of Vancouver.

A Toronto head badge should indicate pre-1917, as Weston officaly opened on January 15, 1917. Of course, there is always the possibility that they had some old stock to use up, but I would think that they would have wanted to promote any bicycles coming from their new, modern facility and would have scrapped any old stock of badges.

I agree with Dave regarding the mud guards/fenders. CCM did not use a common rear mud guard on men's and ladies' bicycles. A separate, eyeleted model for laced  fender skirts was used on ladies' bicycles of the era.  t

Hello Jamie,

I live in Seattle and frequently visit Vancouver.

Sounds like we have similar interests, I have (3) CCM Flyers I am messing about with and lots of European bikes and parts, (mainly track bikes).

Some of my Bike stuff can be seen at this link:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/collections/72157628707166153/

Regards

Tony

moonm.music@frontier.com

Gentlemen!

I have to admit to being impressed by the responses pouring in to my introductory thread!

Dave, I like your comment regarding the changing of your hubs to New Hercules. I do the same sometimes for riding purposes using Indian or Chinese Pigeon wheels, they look reasonable and work well. The white (light grey) Dunlop Imperial Triple Stud tires are too precious to risk as well, so I ride generic 28x1 1/2 black but need to get some white or cream German ones.

T-Mar, I hadn't put together the significance of Toronto rather than Weston on the head badge, It seems obvious now, still learning! Pre 1917 sounds great although the Perfect seems to blingy to be War time...

Tony, Wow, what a website!!! Especially like the Rotrax and both the Carlton and CCM Flyers. Acquiring a CCM Flyer is very high on my wish list, as well as a Flyte, and well, the list just goes on and on...glad to hear you visit the Vancouver area, I visit Seattle every month, but as a member of a Model Railroad Narrow Gauge group, we can't live on bicycles alone! I also have a special fondness for Pista/Track bikes as I used to race in Winnipeg on their outdoor cement velodrome, and I've got a few scars to prove it! I've got a couple of Terryn Pistas from Belgium (again an early Merckx builder) as well as Colnagos, Cinellis, and some mystery UK frames. I'd love to visit your collection. Seeing your website convinces me I really need one but I just don't have the skill to do it. It's kind of ironic since I used to fly computerized airplanes around the world and can barely manage my IPad...

Great responces guys, thanks very much, Jamie

Jamie, even during the Great War, CCM offerred ten optional finishes (at additional cost) which involved various combinations of base colours, sunburst heads and pin striping. So, there was still some bling available, even if the standard colour for most models was basic black. 

T mar I have a 1939 CCM Flyer that is original paint. I am going to call the color peppermint green similiar to the bianchi green if you know what I mean. I would like to know what CCM called it as it has the originall gold scallops on the front headset. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks Louis

Lou, prior to it's discontinuation in the autumn of 1941 the Flyer appears to have been catalogued only in blue (sometimes listed as sapphire blue). While I don't have all the literature from this period, I do have the Flyer specs for  1926, 1928, 1930, 1932-1936 and 1938-1941. When the Flyer was reintroduced in the 1950s, it was catalogued in CCM Metallic Green. Personally, I don't consider this similar to Bianchi's Celeste, but it a lighter shade of green. See attache photo (unfortunately, not my bicycle). 

Back to my early Perfect, I know I need to put up pictures but looking through various references I should mention that the front fender begins and is attached BEHIND the fork crown, sort of a half fender and has a leather mud flap at the bottom. Might this be a diagnostic feature? Both the rear and front fenders have a distinctly rolled edge...

Jamie

 I have had a couple bikes with that fender that starts at fork crown. Which makes it very early. The fenders are they round with a rolled edge which mine where. With flat fender braces.One rivit per brace or maybe nut and bolt if replaced. Look at the for sale column couple months back says Perfect for sale check out the pictures. It is a cushion frame model check the head badge.

Dave

Dave

The fenders are round in cross section with sharply recurred rolled edges. The braces are round heavy wire stock, flattened where the fits against the fender and fixed with 2 rivets. The axle end is a coil which fits outside the stay, sandwiched between the frame and axle nut. Checking the Perfect recently for sale my head badge has no model or number, in fact it's open with the head tube showing through. All the rest of the badge is the same.

Jamie

 Some of the bikes did have round fender braces also.with 2 rivits now that I think about it.

Hi Jamie,

  I'm in Vancouver, born and raised in New Westminster. Welcome to the wet coast! I hope some of those 33 bikes have fenders :) Unfortunately, I am still on the hunt for my antique... I'm keeping an eye out for a Canadian safety bicycle, 1900-1915... I just want one in my stable to maintain, ride and most of all cherish. As you're in New Westminster, I hope you've checked out Caps Cycles in Sapperton... look up in the rafters for some incredible treasures, ranging from a very early Velocipede/boneshaker, through the ordinarys and my personal favourite, a Victor Model "C", ala Frank Lenz. They also have some older italian racing bikes (I'm more into the cruisers, being a fat guy in the cycling world...) and a BSA paratrooper bike. When I was a kid they had a museum underneath the store full of incredible things, but sadly that is gone. The best of the antique bikes were kept though :) The staff are really great to deal with as well. I'll never forget riding my first two wheel bicycle, a 1985 Raleigh BMX off the lot - It was my first taste of freedom as a kid. 

Now to check out Tony's site...

Cheers,

Jay

P.s' I'm going to tell my wife you have 33 bikes... I can't wait for that reaction :D

Jay

I know Cap's well and have been through their collection before they had their auction, at least they still have some gems in the New West shop and a few others scattered about their other stores. New West Cycle closed recently and Sean is looking for cheaper rent. They had quite a bit of Vintage machinery and more importantly, knowledge and interest! Hope to see them back soon....Give me a call at 604 524-1085 and enjoy Tony's site!

Jamie

Hi Jamie,

      Will do! I'm in the Cariboo for work until the 11th or so, I'll call you when I'm back in town. I'm missing the spring weather in Vancouver. I'm sorry to hear New West Cycle closed down, I hope they find a new home - I purchased a few items from them (Some old non-aero brake levers I was very happy to find) in the past and they were great to deal with. 

Talk soon!

Cheers,

Jay

Lou, as a result of your post, I was contacted by member Oldy57, who also had a Bianchi celeste colored Flyer. He provided me with a picture of his and it certainly appears to be very close to Bianchi celeste. It's the first CCM I've ever seen in that colour. Consequently, I went back and had a closer look at the catalogues.

During the early WWII era, the CCM catalogues list four shades of green touch-up paint; CCM green, Boy Scout green, Romney Green and Texedo green. It's obviously not the familiar CCM green or Boy Scout green. I've never been able to find out what Texedo green is but I've seen colour chips for Romney Green that range from turquoise to what I would call a slate green. Bianchi celeste could be considered to fall within this range, so if it is a standard CCM colout, it may be Romney green, but I can't say this with any degree of certainty.

Of course, the other possibility is that the customer specifically ordered Bianchi celeste.CCM would paint in just about any colour, provided the customer was willing to pay for it. I think Bianchi’s celeste had  become close to this shade by the 1940s. There are some online pics of actual Bianchi ridden by Coppi in the late 1940s and very early 1950s and they appear to be quite close to this. Consequently, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of somebody having asked for Bianchi celeste/green, if this shade was not a standard CCM colour. 

The other possibility is that it was a standard automobile colour that someone ordered. I'm not a big car person but I've seen cars from around this period in what appears to be that colour. Of course, I'm assuming that owners of these classic cars would only repaint them in factory correct colours.

Hi T Mar
I finally figured out how to attach a photo. Any ways when I got the frame that is all I got. I built it up with ccm parts so its not correct. I would like to find a copy of the 39 catalogue so I could figure out correct parts as I am not exactly sure as I stand to be corrected. Is it a Flyer Trainer or Flyer Roadster. All I know is it is the original green paint and its a 1939. Its a great rider. I like the forward leaning stance as the front forks are shorter than the normal ccm forks. So you are thinking Romney Green T mar correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks Lou

A couple more pictures of my 1939 CCM

What a lovely path racer! Even with some newer parts it really looks the part...Thanks for sharing

Jamie

The bicycle has some interesting traits. First off, it has rear triangle has real dropouts (i.e. forward facing slots). I have never seen this on CCM racing bicycles of this period. If anything, I would I assume that this would be something you might be able to option on the Custom Built Professional Racer (hereafter I'll call it the CBPR to save typing). However, the white seat stays are indicative of Road Racers and Flyers of this era. 

The fork is interesting in that there is very little taper to the blades. This actually looks like a Road Racer fork. The Flyer and CBPR had noticeable taper to the blades. The CBPR forks were chromed at the tips and crown, whereas the Flyer and Road Racer forks were fully painted during this period. 

It's hard to tell in the pics, but the seat stays look kind of chunky, like a Road Racer. The Flyer and CBPR used smaller diameter seat stays than the Road Racer.. Still, the Road Racer typically had a fender mounting hole under the seat stay bridge and I see a paint chip but not a hole. Please verify the presence or absence of a fender mounting hole.

The bottom line is that it is very hard to tell which model it is from the picture. It has traits of the Road Racer, Flyer and CBPR. Consequently, providing a equipment list at his point is moot. We first need to determine which model it is. As a start, please measure the diameter of the seat stays and seat post. That should at least tell us if it is a Road Racer or a Flyer/CBPR.

Oh it's a Road racer alright.

Hey Jamie thanks for the great comments. Its a Survivor , the only way to go original paint tells the story. Like I say a bike is only original once paint that is as I only inhereted the frame. The only reason I bought the frame was because it was original paint. I have been in the hobby for about 18 years and I am leaning more and more towards original paint bikes as they tell the storey the best. Thanks again

Tmar there is a hole for fender. The seatpost is .875 or 7/8" standard CCM size. The seat post down tubes are 1/2 ". Hopefully this helps

I love that bike and color. I wish I would have kept it. Fred didn't tell me he was selling it or I would have bought it back from him. I hope to see him soon. If you want to sell it or trade for a blue one, original paint I would trade.

Tom I bugged Fred for 2 years to sell it to me finally he bit on the offer. He also had a saphire blue Flyer frame that he sold to a buddy of mine. My buddies is a Flyer frame as the drop outs faced the back were as mine face the front. Thanks for the offer again Tom but I love the ride of this bike. Its a farelly fast which ride which I enjoy.

Yes, it's definitely a Road Racer based on the post and seat stay diameters. However, if it is a 1939, that makes the dropouts very puzzling. Everything I have seen from this period has used traditional rear fork ends. Perhaps it was sent back to CCM for modification and a repaint? I do see what appears to remnants of some double pinstriping, so it it may be factory paint.

The good news is that the crankset is period correct. However, the cantilever post is not. I'm attaching the 1939 catalogue page. If you're going for an exact restoration and need catalogue scans of any of the individual component numbers referenced, let me know.

Hey Tmar thanks for the insight. I know the paint is original as I had to replace one of the headset cups and you could see that its the original paint. Thanks again.

Maybe, but the atypical dropouts still have me questioning the originality of the frame. While I haven't seen a lot of pre-war Road Racers, this is the only I've seen without standard rear fork ends. Even the catalogues, right up to the Road Racer's discontinuation during the war, do not show them in this configuration.

Hello T-Mar would you happen to have a 1942 catalogue page for a road racer ?

gt

Hi there.... I am in Vancouver and I just picked a CCM Flyte! I also have a quiver of vintage bikes (X-53, Silver King Hextube, Schwinn Phantom, Elgin Twin Bar, Spaceliner.... I am part of a group that collects and rides vintage.

Let's ride!

Wayne Bertrand