vintage cleveland-lozier with Smith Motor Wheel

Hello Harold

My literature says that Model  104 cushion frame or Hyg.  was built in 1903.

Ron 

Hello Harold and welcome. That's quite a machine you have, I look forward to seeing the photos. It's really nice to know the history of a bike like this. Usually this history is lost and we know nothing of our bike's original use. Can you read the small print on the badge at the bottom? It probably says Canada Cycle and Motor, and not Lozier. I researched the model numbers used by Lozier Toronto and they did not go as high as 104 before merging with four other companies to form CCM in 1899. Where is the bike located?
-Brian

Wow this bike is amazing, it’s looks brand new, barley used. 

The smal print on lower part of badge reads "Canada Cycle & Motor Co

                                                                                     Limited

                                                                                  Toronto, Ont "

Don't know why I thought it was a Lozier -Cleveland.         I live in Whitby.

Thanks Ron for 1903 info.      Harold

I can see the photos now - yes wow! It' beautiful. Will you be offering it for sale here, or somewhere else? Do you have a price in mind?

Hello chandos  very unique bicycle and good luck with the sale 

Hiw much to purchase the bicycle and would you be selling  soon ?

Thanks Greg 

If interested to sell you can obtain my contact  info  gtflyte@hotmail.ca 

thanks Greg again

Hello Harold if you are available  today I would  like to meet you and visit  to view the bicycle.I am located Approx 90 mins away ,

Greg

I am also interested in buying this beautiful bike if you ever decide to sell.

I will pay up for it.

email me directly: max_dc@hotmail.com

you can please call me directly

819

697

8929

I can drive to see it an any time with cash in hand

Harold, can you please tell me the type of rear hub coaster brake that is on your bike? I'm curious to know which brake CCM was using in 1903.

Thanks to all those who commented on the  motorized Smith.  I am not sure just yet whether I will donate it to a museum or offer for sale but be assured I will keep you all apprised if sale it is to be.  I am sorry but as I know very little about value I cannot suggest a price at this time. It will break my heart to see this beautiful part of my family history leave but no choice.

Brian re: the rear coaster hub----there are no markings on it at all.  It is a"skip link" tooth design I think that is the name.  The best I can do for you is to take a close up photo if that is helpful .

  Harold 

I think it should have a Morrow hub on it if correct. Hercules never came out till about 1906 or 7 Ithink. Harold does the bike have a brake arm on it or not?

I would suggest having the bike professionally appraised before selling. Random internet results suggest the bike may value well over 10k US

Dave --On the brake arm is stamped "NEW DEPARTURE COASTER BRAKE".  I never looked for that before as it was kind of hidden behind the motor attachments.

Cbgimse-- Thanks for input.  I have seen several bikes with Smith engine attachments on e- Bay offered by USA sellers in US $ around that amount but nothing on a wood rimmed bike that old. 

The last time I rode it motorized was in the late 1970's and was really nervous about breaking a rim so never tried it since.  Max speed was about 20 mph and a little tricky handling sharp turns with the levered setup on the motor drive wheel.

Thanks to all of you for helpful input !

Harold

i know CCM used Morrown hubs early 1900,s stamped Made in Canada  CCM&C but they more than likely also used New Departure. I have ridden my Massey Silver ribbon bike with wood  original rims many miles with no problem . just have to watch what air pressure you put in. As they will split and have had lots with crack and splits. I have had lots of motor kits for bikes over the years and always kind of wanted a Motor wheel. Like your self I am down sizing,at least a bit.

yes my early CCMs also have New Departure rear hubs

I have never seen a Morrow stamped CC&M hub Dave, do you have a picture of one? I would like to see that

as far as value, it is definitely worth a lot of $$$

may I know who restored it and when it was restored?  it looks like new, amazing

Max

Hi Max  I don;t have the hub anymore Greg has it     gtflyte.  It was on a CCM Massey bike Ihad some years ago.Stamped on hub and Brake arm.

Max--The bike was pretty well "as is" when I inherited it as far as frame , wheels, seat structure but I did have to get the seat leather replaced and added the leather front mud flap and triangular tool bag. The original handle bar grips were wood with metal ferrule rings but the wood was cracked badly so I had new ones turned and fitted. Tires of course are not originals --just regular 28 by 1 and 1/2 inch.

I added the Badger Solar acetylene lamp myself.

as far as the Smith--It is about 99% original. It was low on compression when I got it so had the cylinder bored and refitted with an oversize piston. The red and black painting on the engine and mounting brackets is not original. I did that.

                       Harold

Hello Harold I would really enjoy to own your keep sake but I think instead of donating or selling it I suggest you could

fufill both options , sell to    

The Canada Science and Technology Museum

2421 Lancaster Road
Ottawa, ON K1G 5A3
CANADA

613-991-3044 
1-866-442-4416

Call and contact the curaider and ask.

Then all of us could visit the keep sake 

Greg

I worked at that Ottawa museum briefly in the 1990s. I was hired to document their bicycle collection! It's what got me started in this hobby. They have an excellent and varied collection. They would be interested in the story of how and where your grandfather used the bike, and conserve both the bike and the story. It's true it would spend much of the time in storage but it would be displayed now and then. My boss explained to me that they think long term - the next 100 years, not the next few years.

Through me, they bought my father's Windsurfer. He had one of the first ones, ordered from California before they were in stores. In the end it sat in the yard unused except for swimming, but they gave my father $600 for it and we got to see it displayed in an exhibit on speed. They may buy your bike and you can ask for market value, or if you donate it you would get a receipt for tax purposes. It's a good home for it. Something to consider.
-Brian.

Personnally, I think sending to to that particuliar museum (The Canada Science and Technology Museum) would be a waste.

Sure it would be preserved, but it would be stuck in the basement waiting. Before making a decision, ask them if the bike would see the light of day and how often. They will answer that they have a lot of bikes waiting for display and a rotation needs to be done.

To me, a bike, especially with a Smith is made to be ridden and enjoyed just like you and your grandfather did.

And it's not to say that if would only be seen my me if you decided to sell to me, because everytime a Quebec museum does a display with having anything to do with bicycles, I get a call and loan my collection to them for free for the time of the display.

So you get the best of both world, the bike is displayed with it's history known and it's at least still enjoyed as it should.

You have a lot of options, and the best decision would be the decision that makes you and your family the most confortable.

A tax receipt is a joke as far as what you actually can deduct on your income tax return. Ask your accountant what you would actually get. Donations or charitable donations are not direct deductions. Cash is cash.

I do own 2 TOC CCM cushion frame complete bicycles and one drive-shaft TOC CCM bicycle, but none with a family history.

Max

Museums have their pros and cons, and problems just like anything else. I want to explain though, that when artifacts are in storage they are not locked away in a vault. Researchers can have access to the artifacts by appointment in addition to using their library and archives. Someday, when someone has an ambition to write (another) history of cycling in Canada, the Canada Museum of Science and Technology is one of the first places they'll go.

I've attached two pictures, one of bikes currently on display and one of bikes in storage in their old facility. I understand they have since been moved to a new and improved facility.

thanks Brian for the pics. I have never visited the museum, because both times that I was in the area, it was closed for renovations!!!

But seeing those bikes hung up there makes me know that I would never donate my bikes to a museum.

They are all just sitting there. In the actual display, not even at floor level where you can see and inspect all the intricate details and cool engineering ... the display looks cold, without any life, do you need to bring a pair of long-views?

More important, where is the history about the bikes? In file cabinets? I am sure most of those bikes have a known history tied to them.

A bicycle is mechanical, IMO it needs to be seen up close, at best touched and ridden ( I understand that a museum can't do that). Our local museum in Trois-Rivieres, had a display a few years ago. A few bikes and parts from my collection and a lot on loan from The Canada Science and Technology Museum were displayed. It was a nice display to visit. i think it ran for a year. They had a very nice set-up, where you could see the bike up close (without touching) :).

Oh well, the whole museum discussion would need to be done over a few beers. Obviously, museums are there for the greater good, and to educate, but I still have a problem with it. Bikes are my passion. I have to touch them, ride them and work on them.

Max

Beutiful bike with a lot of History .

Who wouldn't want to own it .

But  If it was in a museum thousands of people would see it and  learn the history  forever  not just in our  lifetime .

I think the owners Grandfather would be proud of him for passing it on in that way .

Good morning all:  Thank you all so very much for the suggestions and comments, especially for the ones relating to bicycles with a known history. I will have to decide on something probably within the year and will keep all options open including those who have expressed interest in purchase.

Thought you might like to see an old and very blurry photo taken around 1920 or so in Gore Bay , Manitoulin Island with my grandfather, Rev. William Swainson, and at his side my mother, with her little brother Robert in my grandfather's arms.  My grandfather was known to develop and print his own film which was quite a feat indeed in those early times. Perhaps that is why the photo is so faded and blurry..  That is the only picture I have of him with his mororized bike.

Thanks for posting that picture.

That picture and provenance are amazing.

In my opinion, it should stay in your family, but that is not always possible as interests varies.

A museum would also definitely be a great place for the bicycle and history. But I would shop around different museums for the donation. Taking my time and asking a LOT of questions about their plan and long-term goals for the bicycle and history.

I prefer smaller museums where it would probably stay on permanent display, and they would more likely show the story with it, something the larger museum can't do.

But it's probably not an easy decision to make and not a decision that should be rushed either.

Max

I agree with Max's suggestion of looking at a smaller private museum where the bike would be on display full time and would have a better chance of having its story told. While the recent renovation at the Science Museum in Ottawa is impressive, it leaves the bikes very much in the distance and without any real focus. Visibility is one thing, but making a connection with the viewer is quite another. 

One such venue is the Horseless Carriage Museum in Fenelon Falls. I don't know the owners, but believe it would be worth contacting them to see what they have to offer. 

John

http://www.horselesscarriage.net  

John, Is there a rule about calling a "collection", a "museum" and vice-versa?

Is a "private museum" really a museum, or just a large collection? I am just asking, because I really don't know.

When a website, lists it's "Hours of Operation for 2016" in 2018 as: By chance or by appointment, please call ahead!   It makes me believe that this is just a large collection and not a museum!!!!!

As soon as I read : "Owner" of the museum, I automatically think collection.

I would 100% try to find a real, registered, non-for profit, public Museum. County, municipal, provincial, or federal funded.

Max

Good question Max. Any museum, whether it's funded with public money or private money, is a collection. Publicly-funded museums are few and far between these days. But who knows. Folks may have other suggestions. Anyone?

John

True John, good explanation. I didn't even see it that way until you pointed it out.

I mentioned earlier that museums have their pros and cons. I worked at a small museum too, which shall remain nameless. Small museums may suffer from minuscule budgets, lack of expertise, board members that treat artifacts like their personal toys, and closure. In the right hands they can be beautiful places that care for and display their artifacts well. Even small museums have much of their collection in storage. They find it necessary to rotate artifacts into exhibits with different themes to give people a reason to come back. I won't say the Ottawa Sci Tech museum is the best place as it has its own issues. I can't recommend one particular museum, sorry.

Ok, so here is a museum/collection recommendation. I will stick my head out and name a name.

Max's Museum, my private museum/collection would be very honered to welcome this bicycle

It would be on permanent display with the history told by the curator (me)

Max

lmfao

Glad that our friend Greg is jumping back in the discussion with his comment. I knew that you, in particular, would love my last comment, as it was done in camaraderie.

Have you ever shown or loaned your collection to a Public Museum before Greg? Tell us about your experience and your thoughts on the subject.

Max

Hey Max sorry I’m not your friend .

Thanks  Greg 

Yes, I had a feeling of that for some reason, but let's keep this constructive and happy.

And leave the emotions out of it, out of respect for Harold and his post.

p.s. re. museums:  It's generally accepted that museums in Canada of any shape and size cannot exist without public funds (I'm sure someone can find an exception). Of course governments at different levels are reluctant to send public money to organizations that are not run by a public entity. I have nothing against private collections - I'm a private colletor myself with a growing collection of Canadian-made bikes. Someday I hope to find a way to display them publicly. In the end I will pass them on to someone who will preserve them as I have (not necessarily a museum, but who knows).

The thing about private museums is that the fate of the museum and the artifacts is at whim of the owner. A case in point is the Bruce Weiner Microcar Museum. At one point it was the largest display of microcars in the world, but when Mr. Weiner decided that he had had his fun with it, everything was auctioned off. He explained it was all about the chase, and said "...but being custodian for all these cars is the part I don't like." With a federally funded public museum, at least you can be reasonably certain it will still be there for your grandchildren to see, even if it's by appointment (and not on display all the time).

Very well put and good points Brian.

Hi Harold. I really like your bike and feel you should look into the museams on  Manitoulin Island. It is a part of the islands history and Im sure they would love to have it. 

Items in a private collection are subject to the whims of the owner or their benefactors. While they may have the best intent, all  collections are eventually are sold off. 

I have seen many museums sell off their pieces to generate money.

I have seen museums close and sell off their complete collections.

I was in the right place at the right time to aquire the remainder of a collection from a museum closing to make room for expansion of their primary business. I wish I knew a while beforte as I could have likely gotten the complete collection.By the way, these items spanded between 1882-1930.

I visited the bicycle museum in Chicago many years ago and was quite disappointed to hear it was closing and the collection being sold off to a private person.

I have also visited the bicycle museum in New Breman Ohio where the Chicago collection went. Who knows where it will go when that guy passes on or sells it off.

Bottom line... you never know where the items will end up even when you think they are safe and going to be displayed forever.

I sure the donors would be rolling over in their graves if they knew the pieces they donated to the museum were given away and not preserved as they thought they would be.

This goes for ALL TYPES of museums.

I also know that car museums sometimes sell off the donated cars to make room for newer additions.

Take your time with the right choice for your bikes future.

My opinion and experiences

I agree Duomatic. I just want to point out that I said *federally funded* museum at the end of my last post. A National Museum is not in the same league as the examples you mentioned.

The bottom line is your just looking after your stuff .Your not taking it with you and not coming back for it.

I have yet to hear of a municipal museam closing. Every community has one that is funded by local government in the interests of preserving the history of the community. The bike played an role with the pioneers of the island.

The Hudson Museum in Indiana decided to close forever and sell off its 55 cars worth about 4 million dollars.

Decided to close in Jan 2018, auction is in Aug 2018.

I would post a link but you can't copy and paste in these forums.

Just another example of another museum closing and selling off its collection.

Happens way to often. Too bad.

Just in case anyone here is interested this bike is posted for sale

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1918-smith-motor-wheel-for-sale.154242/